Pre-EVO 2014 Roundtable Discussion: 6 Top Players, including Daigo, talk about the future of Ultra Street Fighter 4's tournament scene.

How Has Street Fighter Changed Under the New System

4Gamer: Well we've heard a lot about the new characters. Let's dive into the new game mechanics such as Red Saving Attack (red focus), delay standing, and W Ultra. How does it feel to perform these moves?

Kazunoko: Red focus attack is Yun's new super move. It's used specifically in combos with Tetsuzankou (shoulder).

Tokido: Great point. Honestly, despite red focus attack being advertised as a system wide change, only a select few characters can actually employ it in their game plan.

Although EX red saving attack costs 3 meters, it can crumple on a level 1 hit. When coupled with strong zoning moves with little recovery, one can see the huge damage boost. The perfect example is Yun's LP shoulder -> EX red saving attack -> dash -> Ultra Combo 1 You hou.

Bonchan: Yun, Viper and Makoto can incorporate red focus nicely into their gameplan, and it just so happens that these characters are considered strong in the current build.

Daigo: From the perspective of characters that actually benefit from red focus attack, I wonder if it's a good system.

Itazan: For example, C. Viper's medium thunder knuckle -> ex focus attack can now combo. In other words, the theory is that this new change was made because they wanted red focus attack to be viable.

Tokido: Yeah, I really get the same feeling. It would be great if they prepared situations where other characters could actually employ red focus attack into their game. To further on this point, the three characters previously mentioned build meter relatively fast, don't they? If the producers really wanted to make red focus attack a viable option across the entire cast, it might be best to change the amount of meter spent according to each character.

Daigo: I personally think red focus should be able to absorb armor-breaking moves. Don't you think its ridiculous to spend 2 meters only to have your red focus shattered by an armor breaking move?

Tokido: The only time you see a non-ex, raw red focus attack is when someone is hitting a stunned opponent.

Daigo: Red focus can be used to counter really tight strings such as Fei's jab -> Rekka, or Yang's cr.Medium kick -> mantis slash, that have thus far been difficult to counter, but 2 stocks of bar is a bit too much. What if raw red focus only cost 1 gauge?

Momochi: Hrm… I think 1.5 gauge cost would be perfect.

Daigo: What if it only costs 1 bar to start up, and then a second bar to finish the attack animation?

Bonchan: If that were the case, defensive play would be too strong. You could use raw red focus to confirm the opponent's attack, and then dash cancel to punish. Personally, I do think that red focus in some situations is worth it on wake up to do "4 button tech".

*4 button tech is a technique used by plinking MK+MP with LP+LK. If done correctly, you can activate focus attack and tech throws during the first few animations. However, in USF4, this technique will result in red focus activation if the player has more than 2 gauges of stock.

Daigo: You're right. Maybe in the case of fighting Dudley's ultra powerful high/low 50/50 mix up, you would be forced to use 4 button red focus on wake up. You could also use it in a situation where you have a huge life lead, but you've been knocked down and want to maintain the life lead at any cost. Arghh, no matter what, I still think 2 bars is too expensive for red focus. That's all I have to say about it for now. What about W Ultra. Is anyone using it? I personally have never used it before.

W Ultra grants the user both Ultra Combos during the same match. However, each Ultra only deals 75% (60% with some characters) of the original value when selecting W.

Momochi: I use it with Juri.

Bonchan: I see Chun-Li players using it here and there.

Itazan: Now that you mention it, W Ultra is used more than I thought. In the beginning of the game's release, I had the feeling that it can't be used at all.

Daigo: For characters with strong space control, W Ultra may be a viable option too.

Bonchan: You really have to practice the timing of each Ultra for every situation that it should be used. Look at Gen, he has up to 4 Ultra Combos at his disposal.

Tokido: That sounds interesting on paper, but this game revolves around firepower. W Ultra combo in its current state is not a winning strategy because the damage output is too low.

Momochi: Even if you were to give W Ultra extra firepower and everyone converted to using it, this would be very boring. Its difficult. Every character would need their damage to be balanced.

Kazunoko: What if the player could set the ratio of damage between both Ultra when using W? For example, UC1 would do 90% damage of its original value, and UC2 would deal 10% damage of its original value.

Everyone: Oh, that sounds like a cool idea.

Daigo: However, it would be irksome to remember everyone's damage ratio system. Wait, how much % damage does this player's anti-fireball Ultra do? Would it be okay to throw a fireball now? It definitely would be interesting, but very complicated.

Tokido: In conclusion, W Ultra in the current build is difficult to really use. It needs to be tinkered with a bit more.

4Gamer: How about delayed standing? Characters that relied on knockdown vortex are the most adversely affected by the new mechanic, right?

Daigo: Probably the biggest one to suffer is Akuma, then maybe Sakura.

Delay standing is performed by pressing any two buttons when your character has fallen after a hard knockdown such as a sweep or after a throw. Your character's wakeup timing will be delayed by 11 frames. By mixing up regular wake up and delay standing, you can escape out of difficult incoming 50/50 jump in setups. Tokido's vortex trump card is a prime example.

Bonchan: In the Street Fighter 4 series, Sakura was always one hard knockdown away from victory. However in USF4, her comeback chances have decreased. Still, her charge fireball setups in the corner after Sakura-otoshi is as powerful as before.

Kazunoko: How about grapplers?

Itazan: Zangief's "banzai" body press splash is harder to use now. Even T. Hawk may suffer from having fewer okizeme options after LP typhoon.

Momochi: Everyone says that T. Hawk is strong in Ultra, but I hated his previous version more because it was too difficult to deal with his LP typhoon okizeme.

Bonchan: Yeah, it felt strange to see a lot of T. Hawk users going for HP typhoon instead of lp. Since he can no longer do set plays after LP typhoon, everyone preferred to get maximum damage instead.

Itazan: Absolutely. To get a good balance of damage and good okizeme, I changed to mp typhoon.

4Gamer: So is it indeed possible to create okizeme set play that can handle both delayed wake up and regular wake up timing?

Kazunoko: The only one at the moment that can cover both options is Ibuki.

Bonchan: It's possible for Ibuki because she can do many types of moves in the air, so does this mean that its impossible for other characters?

Ibuki, who can change her actions while in mid air can handle both wake up options. If she is aiming to cross up MK on opponent's wake up and sees the word "technical" displayed on the screen, she can throw a late kunai and force the opponent to guard. The most common example of this set up is neck breaker -> frame kill -> forward jump.

Tokido: It's probably impossible for other characters to handle both wake up options. I have not been able to find any such set plays for Akuma. Instead, I must read my opponent wake up decision and commit to a single option.

4Gamer: So to summarize, unlike Red Focus and W Ultra, Delayed Standing is a game mechanic that profoundly impacts the game system.

Momochi: Indeed. It probably turned out the way the game producers envisaged it.

Daigo: I suppose this served to makes characters that did not have any invincible wake up move options such as Makoto much stronger than before.

Momochi: Yeah, it's a bit boring for those waking up. Vortex okizeme was a systematic problem, right? If that's the case, they should have made delayed standing unavailable after being thrown by the opponent.

Tokido: You mean they should make delay standing available only after being knockdown by sweep, but NOT after being thrown, in order to give the attacking side a chance for set play?

Momochi: Yeah, they should reward players who got a hard knockdown to get okizeme (without the risk of the opponent escaping with delay standing), but if incoming the okizeme ended in a sweep, they would not be allowed to keep the vortex going thereafter. Under the current build, there are many situations where people don't care if they are thrown and no longer feel a need to tech throws. Against Sakura, for example…

Daigo: For me, in Ultra Street Fighter 4 I just hold (crouch block) all day long. (laughs)

4Gamer: So delayed standing has lowered the dangers of being thrown and instead of getting counter hit while trying to tech throws, it's often better to just be thrown.

Daigo: Well originally the throw break mechanic was way too powerful. Crouch teching had very little risk, and you always had the option of backdashing to escape. The aggressor had very little expected returns.

Kazunoko: But crouch teching is synonymous with Street Fighter 4 series, isn't it?

Tokido: Well now it's become common sense that crouch tech exists. But its unfortunate for those people that came from games where you had to hold back + HP to tech throws.

Itazan: The reason its so strong is because crouch tech can be used with light attacks. Most are 3 frame moves that are difficult to interrupt. Even if you were to make the correct read and counter a crouch tech, your success is highly dependent on the opponent's timing so it's very difficult.


Daigo: Yes, it's dependent on the opponent's mood. In older games, close range fighting was much more dramatic. Personally, I think it's okay to lose half my life if my opponent guesses correctly that I will crouch tech.

Momochi: Even if you guess correctly that your opponent will crouch tech, the aggressor has very few options. In Street Fighter x Tekken, launch attacks were invincible to low attacks so it was not only highly effective to counter crouch tech, but very fun to play mind games in these situations.

Daigo: Evil Ryu's far standing MK is similar in that regard. While the return is very small, it's still a good move considering there is zero stress required in reading the opponent's crouch tech. It would be great if all characters had a similar low risk/low return move against crouch tech, but this topic has nothing to do with the new systems.

Version 1.01 Is Yun the strongest character in the game? Top players weigh in with their character rankings

4Gamer: From the discussion thus far, it seems as though Yun is very strong. Could we come up with other characters that can go deep at Evo 2014? I know we're all still playing a new game so your basic impression is fine for now.

Daigo: So should we make a character ranking chart? Let's start from the top then. Yun.

Everyone(except for Kazunoko): No question about it!

Kazunoko: I see, I see, it hurts me to hear that.

(everyone laughs)

Daigo: Right below Yun are Fei-Long and Cammy, rounding out my top 3. Who's stronger between Fei and Cammy? I would say Cammy because she can fight against Yun.

Momochi: I actually would put Fei-Long above her, but they're relatively the same strength.

Daigo: Well, let's look at the rest of the cast from the select character screen.


Daigo: (after intense internal debate) Well there are bound to be small differences here and there, but this is the general consensus.

4Gamer: Oh you completed the chart.

Momochi: In version 2012, the top 3 characters Akuma, Fei, and Cammy, had zero weaknesses. In that sense Ultra is similar to 2012 if you think about it.

Daigo: Yeah, Yun would be in the same position as 2012 Akuma and Cammy, and Fei Long's position remains unchanged. Regardless, we can see again from characters with A rank and upwards that high damage output is necessary to be considered strong. The only character that is very strong because of space control is Juri.

Momochi: While that's true about her space control, she also gets considerable damage output in the latter part of the round when Feng Shui engine is activated.

4Gamer: Who else has their ranking dramatically altered in Ultra?

Daigo: How about Dudley, his attack power is enormous when he corners his opponent? Rolento, who has very few invincible move options when cornered, is pretty much finished against Dudley at that point.

Momochi: In version 1.01, although Guy's whirlwind kick has been returned to 4 frames startup, he is still quite strong right?

Daigo: Yeah, if you ignore version 1.00, Ultra is the strongest that Guy has ever been. There aren't many characters with such high damage output in the neutral game midscreen.

Bonchan: Makoto got much stronger as well. Her weakness on wake up has been solved by delay standing, and her impossible matchups against Cammy and Fei-Long in 2012 have become a bit more manageable. However, in Ultra, Yun dominates her even more.

Daigo: Even in AE 2012 Makoto had it pretty bad when facing Yun.

Kazunoko: Actually in 2012 I lost a lot to Makoto…but now in USF4, I hardly lose at all in that matchup.

Itazan: How can Yun be buffed so much that you changed from "losing a lot" to "hardly losing at all"?

Daigo: Ignoring the characters in D rank for now, those in B and C would be viable characters if it weren't for Yun. Their problem is that Yun annihilates them all.

Kazunoko: I think "annihilation" is too strong of a word.

Bonchan: I agree. It's possible for Sagat to stand a chance against Yun.

Daigo: But for the remaining 80-90%, the Yun matchup is impossible right?

Kazunoko: 90% is pushing it…but well I guess it is impossible for them against Yun. (laughs)

Daigo: That's why Yun belongs in a tier all to himself. Between Yun, Cammy, Fei, Evil Ryu and Juri, Yun would still come out on top, but it would be an exciting mach. However, Cammy has a hard matchup against T. Hawk, and Evil Ryu finds charge characters to be a nuisance. The top characters have difficult matchups with characters ranked below them, but Yun has advantages in every matchup. This is why he belongs in his own class.

Bonchan: Viper, Ibuki, Makoto would all move up a rank if only they were able to defeat Yun, but the matchup is too hopeless for them. It's a shame, without Yun in the lineup they would all be strong characters.

Kazunoko: In other words, do I have to play the heel role? Is this the position where I stand presently?


Itazan: Fine, then tell us who Yun has difficulty against.

Kazunoko: Bison (Boxer) is a bit troublesome.

Daigo: It's true that against Boxer, Yun's dive kick from neutral jump is not too effective.

Momochi: But in version 1.01 Ex lunge punch is +1 on block, so shouldn't the matchup be easier? And you can even juggle after that!

Kazunoko: Maybe you can juggle after ex lunge. Okay, not maybe, you definitely can.

Itazan: Can you stop pretending to not know when in fact you do? (laughs)

4Gamer: What about characters that have since dropped down in rank?

Bonchan: Without a doubt, it has to be Akuma and Sagat. They were quite strong in AE2012, but they're both equally weakened.

4Gamer: It's true. I would say that Akuma is a bit stronger than Sagat though.

Daigo: But among the shoto characters, Akuma show much promise, right? I would put him right after Evil Ryu in terms of strength.

Momochi: Um… if you start this conversation, Tokido will definitely say Ken is the 2nd strongest shoto.

Tokido: Well…Ken is…

(everyone laughs)

Tokido: Well think about it, Ken can still do run away hurricane kick. Akuma still has a chance against top characters such as Cammy, Evil Ryu, Fei and Juri, but it's quite risky. Ken is much more stable.

Momochi: Hrm..I think that Akuma is still very powerful.

Bonchan: I think that Ken's rank is higher. He can hit confirm shoryuken and change his defense accordingly.

In USF4, most invicible anti-airs -> FADC (focus attack dash cancel) are -5 on block. However Ken's HP shoryuken can cancel on the 2nd hit, so he has enough time to hit confirm. If he is blocked, Ken can backdash instead of dashing forward, or unleash his saving attack to keep the attack momentum going. Ken's greatest strength is minimizing the risk in reversal uppercut.

Daigo: I see. Despite Akuma's low HP, he must take tremendous risk to uppercut. I don't really have an opinion for delay standing, but the nerf to all uppercuts is really severe.

Tokido: I know right! If uppercuts remained the same then Akuma would be higher than Ken, but now Ken is much more stable.

Daigo: What I really want to say is that Ryu has been unfairly treated among all the shotos. He is affected greatly by delay standing, and his firepower is very low. I don't really care because I don't use him any longer, but because there are many people that still use Ryu, I will speak on their behalf. From the very beginning, there are too many moves designed specially to counter Ryu!

Itazan: What are you talking about?

Daigo: One day I realized the truth. For example, Cody's Zonk knuckle and Yun's MP shoulder, these two moves are considered anti fireball moves, but you never see them used against Ken or Sagat.

Momochi: Now that you mention it I only use Cody's Zonk knuckle against Ryu.

Kazunoko: Ken doesn't really throw too many fireballs to begin with.

Daigo: If you say anti-fireball strategy, isn't it strange if the move doesn't go through Sagat's tiger shot? That's because those fireballs are ghosts. Ken's Ultra 2 (Guren Shippukyaku) can't be used on reaction against Guile or Dee Jay's fireballs, and in the mirror matchup, Ken doesn't really need to throw fireballs. Akuma's footsies are really good so it's hard to use there. In conclusion, Ryu is the only fireball character that you really use anti-fireball moves.

Momochi: Yeah I never use Ken UC2 as an anti-fireball move in other matchups.

Daigo: Why don't we examine the matter from a different point of view. For example, lets pretend that I'm Guy and now Hozanto (shoulder) no longer goes through fireball. All Guy players would then think to themselves, "The Ryu matchup is so troublesome now." In other words, the move is not an anti-fireball move, but rather should be called an anti-Ryu move to be more accurate.

Tokido: There's no way they would do that on purpose though.

Daigo: Ryu's footspeed is slow so he must rely on fireballs. It may not be on purpose, but this is the end result for Ryu. I just wanted to get this off my chest today and say it. Ryu is the ONLY character that is affected by so called "anti-fireball" moves and strategies.

Kazunoko: If you think about it, Gouken is also in the same boat as Ryu, right?

Daigo: …it doesn't matter any longer. I am an Evil Ryu player.

4Gamer: At every opportunity along the way you are promoting Evil Ryu huh? (laughs)

Daigo: Because Evil Ryu's footspeed is fast he can use cr.MK -> hadouken. He is rewarded for taking a risk and walking forward. That's why I was satisfied while playing him. If I take a step back and think conceptually, I would compensate Ryu's slow footspeed and low damage with a strong crouching MK -> hadouken. Conversely, I would make balance Evil Ryu's fast footspeed and high power output by making his crouching MK -> hadouken more difficult to connect. This should be the update moving forward.

Bonchan: Evil Ryu's strength is well documented, but there is a certain difference in pleasure while playing him, right?

Daigo: Yes. The people that continue playing Ryu till this day probably just don't know how fun it is to use Evil Ryu.